Subscribe to this topicForums > General Investment Discussion > Topic: OP/Ed and Commentary re; WSE - World Stock Exchange
| Aug 11th 2008, 16:26 Ironfist Hutchinson |
Re: OP/Ed and Commentary re; WSE - World Stock Exchange | |
| As a side note, I agree that this should not end up as a personal vendetta against whomever, certainly not against Luke, I have no time to spare on the likes of him. If any attempt will come of this intention it should truely be to inform correctly and best in a joined effort with others whom have similar plans to improve the overall quality and security of the game. besides, I only endlessly annoy, bugger or haunt people I truely like LOL |
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| Aug 11th 2008, 16:26 Arnaud Villota |
Re: OP/Ed and Commentary re; WSE - World Stock Exchange
Edited by author Aug 11th 2008, 16:28 |
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| Sophia, don't feel alone. I just received the same message you did: [16:07] LukeConnell Vandeverre: (Saved Mon Aug 11 00:07:24 2008) Hello. WSE has over 27000 accounts of which less than 10 are locked due to breaches of the WSE Terms of Service by those users. I've noticed that you have been making it your business to you spread false allegations about the WSE and I'd like to know why you are doing this? what do you stand to gain? Your account isn't even locked. Regards, Luke. For the record here was my reply. Just to make sure that Luke knows that we are playing an open and transparent game: [16:12] Arnaud Villota: First start telling the truth about the number of companies that you have delisted for no reason except that they may have questioned a policy. Next justify the number of accounts that you have closed and converted the lindens to WICS. Then justify the whole WIC thing. I told you in the past that the lindens in my account were duplicates form the Ginko mess. I told Nickolas and I told you. You both ignered it. As far as I know those lindens are still there and willr emain there because I will not touch them. Are you this paranoid that you have to scan forums to see who is questioning the way you do business? If so, then I pity you. However my pity does not mean that I will not protect my family form your questionable dealings. I have warned them to stay away form you on facebook. And if by chance you ever discover who my family is and start to do what you have done to several others on WSE, then there will be nothing to stand in my way to come after you with everything I have. [16:12] Second Life: User not online - message will be stored and delivered later. [16:13] Arnaud Villota: Please understand that this is not a threat, it will become a course of action if necessary. [16:13] Second Life: User not online - message will be stored and delivered later. *Please substitute *from for form! I am dyslexic on the keyboard. :) EDITED: Also I meant WTFs instead of WICS! The mind gets old.... |
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| Aug 11th 2008, 16:59 Sophia Yates |
Re: OP/Ed and Commentary re; WSE - World Stock Exchange | |
| Yes Iron fist "Sophia" does mean in greek for wisdom. And yes I want to move on from the shark infested waters. My use of wisdom here was to inform and protect after having seen so much in here. I always kept my self quiet and watched all these scams go down if this is truely an intentional scam we will see. Im not looking for gold either in here just to have fun actually. "The real problem we dealing with here are the vague bounderies of RL business and SL gameplay" BINGO! I will write more later but I would like to listen in on the conversation after these developments. So Thank you for your words of advice and wisdom. The name Sophia..well I chose it because its my best frinds mothers name and she was like amother to me and an artist and I always loved it. Sophia |
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| Aug 11th 2008, 19:31 Delicious Demar |
Re: OP/Ed and Commentary re; WSE - World Stock Exchange
Edited by author Aug 11th 2008, 19:32 |
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| Sophia and Arnaud, the messages you received from Luke are not surprising. In my opinion, these are for him the first step in locking your account and seizing your account holdings (if you have any...). I suspect that in his mind, he has now warned you, and therefore cannot be held responsible for seizing your assets if you continue to make "anti-WSE" statements in public. I have seen this pattern before from Luke, and it inevitably ends in your removal from the WSE, and the appropriation of your shares and cash. It seems clear to me that Luke somehow believes he is justified - and he cannot see that he has continually crossed the line. In his mind, he is protected by his terms of service, and believes that since he has stated in them that the WSE can, at it sole discretion and for any reason or no reason cancel your account - that makes it legal and protects him. Of course, as any reasonable person knows - this simply is not true - an illegal terms of service is unenforceable and void. In the short term, however, you need to realized that continuing to post here or elsewhere will only end one way. Although i have not been posting much here or elsewhere since an initial flurry before the WSE opened, and then after my account was banned, I have been pursuing other avenues to have an impact on the situation. I am seeking legal advice, and have identified a number of avenues that can be followed to have an impact on Luke Connell and the WSE, both within SL, and beyond SL. Since I have already written off whatever was in my account - I have nothing to lose by pursuing these avenues. I hate to be so vague, but at this point, I haven't decided how far to go with this - my indignation is telling me to take it as far as possible, but my intellect is reminding me how much time, effort, and resources that might take. And I hate to make silly threats and gestures before I have committed to carrying them through to the end. Unfortunately, any REAL action taken against Luke and the WSE may well spill over to the other exchanges - if Linden Research is subject to (or even threatened with) RL litigation over the actions of Luke Connell and the WSE, it may well feel the need to create a policy with regard to virtual exchanges in general - and we all know that the only safe policy for Linden Labs is an outright ban. I can only imagine that any meaningful legal action by someone against Luke and Hope Capital would also name Linden Research (and possibly Facebook) as a co-defendant, so if something goes forward, I would expect LL to wade in and deal with the situation in one form or another. Although, you never know - LL has surprised me before with its willingness to stand on the sidelines and watch - so perhaps nothing would happen. My ultimate goal in this is to allow Luke Connell the chance to see the error of his ways and make restitution. I don't want to be unnecessarily confrontational, and I don't want to get into a war of words with anyone. I simply want Luke to realize that he cannot play fast and loose with other peoples' property (and it IS our property - no matter what his Terms of Service might say). He cannot continue to justify his unethical and quite possibly illegal actions using the tenuous house of cards that he has constructed to place WSE upon, presumably believing that it offers him some measure of protection. Perhaps I am having my own delusions of grandeur in thinking that as an individual I can have an impact on the situation, or that anyone really gives a shizt what I think or say or do about the situation. But whatever I decide to do, if I do anything, I will approach it as I approach everything - quietly, methodically, with a great deal of research and planning, and, once committed, passionately. So there. dd |
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| Aug 11th 2008, 19:52 Arnaud Villota |
Re: OP/Ed and Commentary re; WSE - World Stock Exchange | |
| Thanks dd. I have nothing to fear from Luke. In fact he can freeze my account if he wants, there is nothing there of value anyway, except some old duplicate GPB bonds that I already tried to surrender to him and Nicholas to no avail. I don't want them, because they aren't mine. I have no plans of going back to WSE. Like Hutch, I do not like financial blackmail and if that is the game that Luke is playing then he is playing with himself. (cough, cough). Good luck with your strategy. I hope that it is successful, if anyone can make a difference in letting the community know what is going on, it is you. I am not advocating any direct action against Luke or WSE, especially litigation. I agree any litigation would spill over to the rest of the exchanges and serve no purpose except to make some Lawyers a little richer so that they can spend a week in Cancun and give LL an excuse to shut us down completely or change the rules so drastically that it causes all of us to lose what money we have left in game. I am not an advocate of that. I am on the side of informing the public of the past and what is currently going on now, lest we forget. I think that is the best that we as a community can do. If Luke chooses to raise the stakes, then he can compete against himself because I'm not sure anyone wants to play "poker" with him any longer if that makes any sense. However if you see a danger in that (informing the public by the means being discussed on this forum,i.e. ads on SLR and Facebook linking to a "stories" page, u-tube videos, etc., then I am willing to listen to other ideas. Thanks. |
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| Aug 11th 2008, 22:42 Sophia Yates |
Re: OP/Ed and Commentary re; WSE - World Stock Exchange | |
| DD your right and I agree with you also Arnuad. What took me by surprise actually is that I got that notice from him when I basically ont have a dime in WSE. I left along time ago because of the exchanges being down and all the business we r all aware of. I hadnt really had cross words with him so thats why I was taken back a bit by the notice. I agreed with people on this board that yes i felt it was unethical or what ever i said ...but I agreed and I dont think Ive said to much about him actually at all anywhere. And also he and I from time to time would talk but I would try not to talk about what he was doing. We were close at one time no trouble had fun but then I went my own way because things were falling aprt with that group of people and then other echnages popped up and then another problem so I havent really been on that scene for along time. i stayed away but liked to see his builds because like I said it was a place full of people in the begiign and thats what makes a place the presence of lolId like to say human beings but in this case virtual funny avatars from all over the world. But thats all gone now. So I have nothing there and Ive always visited his place i tried to stay nutral in all this along time since last june I think but If he really knows me in sl he knows I have visisted his place many times just to l ook around like I do everywhere else and just because Im there doesnt mean I mean to do any harm. And well it was just ccoincidental that I had made films of his place the other week and knew the pending opening was coming so I think its more of being paranoid now for him. To me he is still a kid and he just has some maturing to do because this is a big playground and people really dont need him. Many people have not even heard of the WSE Im serious or even know that there r srock exchnages on second life. Serious I have gone all over this place and tried to go outside this financial network to see what else is going on and let me tell you there is allot more. But banning them all together isnt the answere. They can offer some great learning experiences for osme because what im finding is allot of players r seasoned lol like me. im not old I know but had my carreer have my family and have seen allot in my life and there r allot of others in here who seem to have the desire to mentor people in these areas. So banning isnt the answere but awarness is a good thing not beware actually. no matter what people do in here to prevent any kind of scam or unethical behavior well thats a fantasy. An awarenes program would be constructive to develop for people who want to participate in this area of SL. And Im not talking orientation Island and pointing fingers at one peticular exchange when new people arrive but as a whole somekind of orientation for beginingers to relaize the pros and cons and risks involved in this area of sl. There will be fraud there will be people lashing out at others either because they had a bad day, month hmm year we cant change it but we can at least try and avoid it by educating people what the deal is in here. I know some of the gentlemen here on this exchange were holding meetings, seminars to help people understand things better in here maybe bring it to another level specifically desighned for an orientation on all the different exchanges in SL because there will most likely always be more than one, always competition and if one goes down they all could go which doesnt help anyone. But i think there r enough people inhere with enough business sence to put together some program where they could switch off and on with each other. Rotate or how ever they could fit it in I think that would be a great attraction not just to one exhnage but for all of them. Like I said its a big play ground and there is room for everyone. Well enough said..Im tired and hope you all recover what is due to you. I really understand what has happened and agree still it is wrong period and I can say that because I can plain and simple. Sophia |
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| Aug 12th 2008, 03:06 Ironfist Hutchinson |
Re: OP/Ed and Commentary re; WSE - World Stock Exchange | |
| To whom it may concern, or be interested. I came accross an somewhat older article that offers a compact and understandable historical insight on how we got upto the currently ongoing discussion about virtual money and it's value (like the Linden or Disney dollar and the WIC of course), even the real US$ seems to be virtual money or whatever currency used these days worldwide for that matter. If we want to inform the SL player on how the SL economy works and how to perticepate in it without them constantly being exposed to the always waiting smoothtalkers, moneysharks or the plain ruthless scammers I think a better understanding on why it actually works the way it does these days is one of the best things to start with. Personally I restrain myself from using the word "educate" because I simply do not have the credentials to backup the claim of being a teacher. But as far as I know it is free to share information, unless it is harmfull to the general commonwealth or tries to rally people against lawenforcement or other goverment .... etc etc bla bla LOL. http://www.deepjournal.com/p/7/a/en/388.html Hutch |
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| Aug 12th 2008, 04:12 Ironfist Hutchinson |
Re: OP/Ed and Commentary re; WSE - World Stock Exchange
Edited by author Aug 12th 2008, 04:14 |
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| Oh my oh my, Doesn't that all sound like certain episodes we recently endured in SL too ? So in very short terms, you can compare the SL stockmarket game to a big baloon filled with hot air and those whom are better versed in the game or have large interest at stake in it know better then to wave sharp objects near it. So the question really is, Are we trying to protect newcomers from being the next wave of victims ? Or are we trying to protect the investments of the big boys and girls whom realise this is a very dangerous road to follow ? Anyway, the premessis on which the power/control over others is based comes from the fact that those whom hold your money are very sure that you will not be that stupid to start poking this baloon with a needle, and others seem to hope you actually are that stupid so they have a reason to give you the boot. Hmmm, it must be quite an expirience to be a prisoner of something that has virtually no value. with regards Hutch |
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| Aug 12th 2008, 05:55 Ivan Halfpint |
Re: OP/Ed and Commentary re; WSE - World Stock Exchange | |
| Well I have to agree with DD here. The WSE does try to hide behind the 'TOS'. I also agree no matter what the TOS says or what Luke believes when you lock a user out of their account and not allowing them access to THEIR money it is just WRONG. Selling bonds with a promised payment on a specific date and defaulting on them is WRONG. Forcefully delisting companies and siezing THEIR assetts is WRONG. Locking peoples accounts for 9 months - rendering their Linden Balance NUL and replacing with with a fictional currecy that the WSE will never be able to back (without anyones consent) is WRONG. Right now WSE is trying to raise $40,000USD dollars in SPO to back these WIC's. Where did the original Linden Balances go? Mark my word - if and when people are allowed to start emptying their accounts there is not going to be enough RL USD to back the sell off - why do you think he WSE SPO is set to end one day before people are finally allowed to cash their money out? Why would anyone put more money in the WSE given its brutal track record? Some food for thought. Cheers Ivan |
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| Aug 12th 2008, 06:02 Arnaud Villota |
Re: OP/Ed and Commentary re; WSE - World Stock Exchange | |
| Thanks for the reference Hutch. Interesting read, I think it may be worth it's own thread for further discussion. As far as your premise goes, a quote comes to mind: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" Since we know that history happens very,very quickly in SL, it very easy to forget. Therefore my hope is that we can begin to "write a history" as a community of what has gone wrong in the SL financial community, not just WSE but also Ginko, Allenvest, Tizzy's stuff, etc. not only to warn newcomers but also to remind ourselves that we really need to be wary of "the good deal". History in this sense means to have a jumping off place to point people to, rather than just tell them to do their "due dilligence" or go google "stuff". That's what I think Ivan's "page" will be a beginning of. Once that page is ready then we can reference it in as many forms as we want. I tend to think that if we don't do something, then we will eventually be held "prisoner of something that has virtually no value.", as you said, because the likes of Luke, Allen, Jasper, Nicholas, etc. will just keep hanging around coming up with better and more sophisticated ways of taking our money, because they know that they can get away with it. Why? Because we let them. |
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